Why Relationships Matter for Burnout
A Q&A with clinical psychologist, burnout expert, and author Debbie Sorensen
If You’re Feeling Burned Out, it May be Time to Look at Your Relationships
This week’s newsletter features a conversation with clinical psychologist and burnout expert, Debbie Sorensen. Her brand new book is ACT for Burnout: Recharge, Reconnect, and Transform Burnout with Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and I had the chance to riff with Debbie about the role of relationships in burnout.
A quick aside that Debbie and I are colleagues and friends who worked together as co-hosts on the Psychologists Off the Clock podcast for 6 years (I left in September to devote more time to writing). Debbie and the rest of the Psychologists Off the Clock team continue to put out amazing content that aims to share evidence-backed ideas and practices from psychology—I highly (and totally objectively) recommend checking it out.
In today’s newsletter, I talk with Debbie about the role of relationships in burnout. But relationships are just a small piece of what’s offered in the book. ACT for Burnout addresses everything from the reality of systemic issues to why psychology can help. Debbie is an expert in an evidence-based treatment called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and shares tools from this therapy that can help each of us manage our risk for burnout more effectively, here and now. If you want to read more, you can order it here. Or you can get a free, signed copy of ACT for Burnout, by entering the giveaway below.
(The giveaway will also include Alex Soojung-Kim Pang’s book, Rest: Why You Get More Done When You Work Less; I’ll be sharing a conversation with him shortly. These books are the perfect pairing for those of us feeling overwhelmed and exhausted by all of our many role demands.)
So, What Do Relationships Have to Do With Burnout?
You might already know that relationships are known to be THE most reliable key to people’s wellbeing and success. This same finding shows up in burnout. So, I wanted to talk to Debbie about how we can use our relationships to protect us from getting burned out… and also how to know when our relationships are part of the problem of our burnout.
Yael Schonbrun: I wanted to start with the double-edged sword of relationships that you discuss in your book. Social support can mitigate burnout, but, at the same time, relationships can deplete us and prompt burnout. Can you talk a bit about this double-edged sword?
Debbie Sorensen: So, at a high level, the fact the relationships can protect and contribute to risk speaks to how social relationships are so core to us as humans. We're social creatures, social animals, and we need relationships. We're not meant to be living and working alone, or we're not meant to be isolated.
At the same time when relationships go awry, it can be one of the biggest sources of stress. It can be one of the things that keeps us up at night that absolutely makes stress much worse. And the line that you're talking about, where it tips over is, whether it's individual relationships or a team or a community, is when it feels like it's adding more stress to your life as opposed to providing you with that outlet and support that we really need.
Humans need help, we need support. We need to be able to access emotional support and practical support. But sometimes relationships actually drain us. So for instance, if you're immediate team at work is supportive, you'll have a really great experience that's protective from stress and burnout. But if your team is or if there are dynamics that are problematic, it can actually add to the stress that you're experiencing. And it can be some, in some cases it can be the biggest problem that you have.
Yael Schonbrun: You know, I was just thinking that there's no question that friendships are so important in protecting just our wellbeing in general and help to prevent burnout. But I had a recent friendship experience that makes me think the association is more complicated than meets the eye (usually true in psychology!). A few weeks ago I went on a girl's trip. It was several years in the making because it was so hard to get away and, on the one hand, it really filled my cup. On the other hand, it depleted me because I had to come back and there was a backlog of emails. There were deadlines. There were kids that missed me and that I missed that I wanted to double down my efforts with. So I wonder if you can talk about this idea that the same relationship can cost you a lot, even as they protects you.
Debbie Sorensen: Yeah, to piggyback on what you're saying, it does take time and resources to have a social life and there is a tipping point where it becomes another stressor. If you get too busy socializing all the time, you're not gonna have time to yourself to recharge.
I think in the case of a trip with friends, it's really great to be able to do that once in a while, but it's pretty demanding on your time and resources. I actually think sometimes just having a friend who can more conveniently, you know, who can run to Costco with you or who can find support for a few minutes here and there at the the workplace is not necessarily better, but it's going to fit more easily into your life.
I know for myself, when I. I love having friends and having time to socialize, but sometimes I say yes to too many friend things and I'm just exhausted because I'm doing too much. So it can almost add to that feeling of you don't have enough time to rest and relax.
Yael Schonbrun: To go deeper on that, I know you pretty well and there's a reason that you are a therapist—you value caring for people and being there for them. You are also somebody who's incredibly enthusiastic! So I know that saying no to things is really hard for you, not because you feel like you are being forced, but sometimes because you're really excited and you care. And then there's also a people pleasing piece, which is that you are someone who wants to honor the other person and take care of the relationship.
So, given all that, my question is what tips you have for how to set boundaries, both that protect ourselves from depletion and that protect the relationships which are important in protecting us from burnout?
Debbie Sorensen: Yeah, people-pleasing and setting boundaries is really important for burnout. It's really an act of courage for people who tend to say yes to everything or who don't like to say no and potentially disappoint people.
So, first of all, you have to be really clear on your mind, in the first place, about what you want to say yes to and what you want to say no to. Because I think it can be really easy to slip into a default yes to everything. And then, and once you recognize “I need to say no to some things,” you have to summon up some courage.
The truth is that a lot of times saying no is harder in the moment than saying yes. We worry about disappointing people, missing out, making people mad at us. People often do have that response, and so we have to be willing to do something that's hard and uncomfortable and we can learn some skills in doing so.
For instance, I share some skills in my book including concrete, assertive communication skills and skills in saying a kind but firm no that we can practice and get better at. I think of these as skills that can be learned and rehearsed and they do become easier the more you do it. It’s important, therefore, to remember that if you're a people pleaser, the first few times you say no to someone is going to be hard, but once you practice it more, it gets easier.
Yael Schonbrun: Can you give an example of a script for somebody to say no in a firm, but kind way?
Debbie Sorensen: So I might say something like, “If I had more time, I would really love to help you out with that. I'm really maxed out right now, so I'm gonna just have to say no. But I wish you, but I hope your project goes well.”
Yael Schonbrun: I love that. That's so great.
Debbie Sorensen: Sometimes you have to do the broken record technique, which many people have written and involves repeating the same thing, even when people push back on you. In this technique, you don't have to come up with an excuse or bargain with them or negotiate. Just keep repeating until they get the hint that you're not going to budge.
Yael Schonbrun: I was just thinking about how our colleague, Leidy Klotz’s research shows that subtracting is actually harder than adding, and so we just default to yes just as we would default to adding. And as another colleague, Zoe Chance, talks about in her book, Influence is Your Superpower (and which you cite in ACT for Burnout), studies do show that saying no is really hard! Even just starting from that recognition and then seeing it as a practice and something that we have to grow skill in as opposed to something that should happen automatically when it doesn't can help.
Debbie Sorensen: I'll add that it's easier to say yes in the moment, but then at some point you pass this tipping point where you're running yourself ragged, you're exhausted and burnt out, and end up becoming resentful every time you say yes. And so I think that when you get to that point, you know, it's, for me, I kind of got to the point where I had to start saying no, I was really terrible at this and I had to get better at it.
Because I just couldn't sustain saying yes anymore. And I think for a lot of people, that's what's happened as they finally get to the point where they have to learn this skill because it's just become too much.
Yael Schonbrun: You know, I spoke with
for her Substack (which is terrific—highly recommend!) about relationships and I was telling her that one of my mantras that I share with clients is “choose guilt over resentment” because guilt is an uncomfortable feeling, but resentment is so much more toxic for relationships.Debbie Sorensen: I love that. That's so good. I wish I could add that to my book!
Yael Schonbrun: So, when we recognize that relationships are depleting us, one of the things to try is to start to say no. But backing up further, what are some signs to look out for that would indicate relationships are depleting us versus protecting us? That would help to cue us to practice our “saying no” skills?
Debbie Sorensen: If you find yourself constantly thinking about a relationship, like ruminating about it, worrying about it at night, if you find that conversations with a particular person or group of people are really exhausting you, or the relationship itself has started to feel like a big problem in your life, those are each signs.
Maybe it's a demanding boss or a friend or partner who's been really difficult to deal with, or someone who's kind of dumping their problems on you over time, or you feel is kind of taking advantage of your niceness. I think that, you know, if you get to the point where the situation is causing you more stress than other things, it’s wise to pause and ask yourself if now is a time to set up boundaries.
Let me pause to note that, of course, in most relationships there'll be moments where things feel excessively frustrating. So it’s more the pattern you’re looking for. If a relationship is draining you repeatedly over time, that's an indicator that something needs to change.
Yael Schonbrun: Yeah, so it's kind of like taking the temperature, like, you know, where is this relationship fitting in? How is it helping me or costing me?
Debbie Sorensen: And one thing you can do is tune into your emotions about the person. Just noticing, you know, is this a person that enhances my life or is this a person that's draining me? And noticing that can be a really good indicator.
Yael Schonbrun: You know, I worry that some people would say “Ah, relationships are so stressful! I'd rather just unhook and bury my head in my work and get things done and not be distracted by all the people who are so complicated and exhausting to deal with.
What is some advice that you have for people that have a tendency to get hooked on those kind of thoughts and then find themselves feeling lonely and isolated?
Debbie Sorensen: I do think that that's a really good point. But we know from all the psychology research that's out there that the vast majority of people do better when they have supportive relationships in their life.
Now that might be a couple of people that you're really close to, or it might be a bigger social network. But most of us need some social support. We just do.
So if you're someone who maybe has some social anxiety or tends to be a little bit introverted or shy, you might find that your relationship capacity is a little bit lower, but that doesn't mean that they're not important to you. For instance, there's this concept of “collaborative overload.” It’s an idea that reflects how if we have too much interaction and too much collaboration, it can just start to feel like too much. Like if you're in meetings all day long working on group projects.
So, you might have to think about what's the right level for you. It's not going to be the same for everyone, but I would encourage you to think about what the right level of interaction and relationship would be that would help you feel most fulfilled personally. If you need a lot of alone time or if you like to have a smaller group of people, that's fine. It's more the quality than the quantity that matters.
Yael Schonbrun: Those are wise words to end on. Thank you so much, Debbie. I’m so excited for this book to get into people’s hands.
You can order Debbie’s awesome book to get more insights on preventing or healing from burnout, or enter the book giveaway to get a copy of ACT for Burnout and Rest, by Alex Soojung-Kim Pang! (And please share this newsletter with others who you think might be struggling with burnout.)
Go Deeper With Me!
If you enjoy the kind of relational science I explore in this newsletter:
Pick up a copy of my book, Work, Parent, Thrive. In it, I explore the relationship between roles, parents and children, and partners, and the science guiding us in how to thrive in a life full of demanding roles. (Email me if you’d like to be sent a free copy of the first chapter.)
Follow me on Instagram, where I attempt to regularly share science-backed ideas for relational thriving: @yaelschonbrun
I spend much of my professional time thinking about how science and clinical practice can foster relational thriving, including relationships between parents and children. A newsletter isn’t therapy, but it can be therapeutic. Send me your parenting or marital questions if you’d like to read about how social science and clinical practice can help you navigate specific relationship challenges more skillfully.
Relationally yours,
Yael
I look forward to checking out Debbie's new book. Wonderful nuanced conversation about both the benefits of relationships but also how they may contribute to stress and possible burnout.