How to Avoid Estrangement

A Q&A with bestselling author Lindsay Gibson

From social media to books to this recent New York Times article on the question, “Is Cutting Off Your Family Good Therapy?”, estrangement from toxic people is often seen as a healthy move. And for many people in a whole variety of situations, it really is.

Yet estrangement may not be the preferred choice. Consider that many people who enter therapy don’t want to cut off ties—they want a way to stay connected, but also protected. Bestselling author of Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents, Lindsay Gibson, offers a really helpful framework to accomplish this challenging task and was willing to let me interrogate her wisdom for today’s newsletter.

Because our conversation is a little lengthy, let me offer a quick summary here:

According to Lindsay’s work, EIPs (emotionally immature parents or people) tend to be quite egocentric, lack a depth of empathy, and are not great at self-reflection. It’s why relationships with EIPs can be so devastatingly painful. In our conversation, Lindsay explains that staying connected to an EIP requires a acceptance of who they are and how they operate. Just as critically, we need to be in touch with and accept our own emotional cues in order to keep ourselves emotionally safe. Finally, Lindsay recommends striving to see the things we can love or appreciate, even in people with whom our relationships are difficult.

I hope you get as much out of this Q&A as I did [conversation edited for clarity and length].

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Yael: One way to drop the rope from an unhealthy relationship is to detach—estrangement, disconnecting, distancing. But there are many times where it makes sense to stay engaged. Yet staying engaged with emotionally immature people (EIPs) is a complicated thing because we of a natural impulse to want to be understood, which with EIPs can lead to a lot of pain and frustration. Can you help us understand what the possibilities are for staying connected?

Lindsay: My way of thinking about it is tied up with the characteristics of emotional immaturity. Say you have a four or five-year-old and you're trying to communicate with them. Multiple points of view need to be taken into account, but little kids can't do that. They don't have the cognitive or emotional development to self-reflect, to understand abstract principles like fairness, fair play, or politeness. Instead, it's about how what you’re saying going to affect me right now and impact getting what I want. That's pretty much the focal point for EIPs.

Emotionally mature people have perspective and empathy about the fact that other people are real inside and they have feelings too. And you take that into consideration and work with that into communication.

If you're trying to communicate abstract principles to an EIP, like for example “it's just not fair that you do this or hurt my feelings.” Or, “We need to have healthy boundaries.” These are abstract principles. And an EIP may not have the capacity to do mentalization, to think about and imagine what you are thinking about that you have stuff going on inside you, that you are as real inside as they are. And if you're trying to encourage them to take your point of view so you can reach a mutual understanding, it's like asking a four-year-old to do multiplication. An EIP can hear the words okay, but they can't do it. They don't have that capacity.

So, when emotionally mature people conceptualize what the problem is, like boundaries, politeness, mutual respect, reciprocity, kindness, or whatever it is, they have a concept they can naturally boil it down to, to capture what the problem is, and then they try to impart that. The EIP hears the words but doesn’t conceptualize it at that abstract level. So, it doesn't move them at all. It doesn't mean anything to them. For them, you're just yack yacking and complaining about them for no good reason. And they're back filling with their version of the story, which was, you know, “I love you, I was only trying to give you good advice. I've lived longer than you. I could see that this was going to be a problem of trying to save you from a big mistake.” EIPs are constantly backfilling with their perspective and their story on whatever it is.

What’s important to recognize is the way that an EIPs mind has developed to understand things is probably very different from your own.

Yael: You know, I was reading this book by Temple Grandin called The Autistic Brain and I wrote down this quote that relates to what you’re saying because Grandin is explaining what it’s like to communicate with people whose brains are simply wired differently:

When I started designing livestock facilities in the 1970s, I couldn’t understand why other designers didn’t see obvious mistakes—mistakes that I could see at a glance. I thought these people were stupid. Of course, I understand now that we were just looking at the world through very different sets of eyes—or, I should say, through very different kinds of brains.

This recognition that we may have different brains and that understanding and acceptance that brains can operate differently is so important because then you set up the expectations for how to be more effective as opposed to operating on incorrect assumptions that people understand in similar ways.

Lindsay: Yes. And for adult children of EIPs, this is such an alien concept. It doesn't compute.

Yael: Right, but for somebody with autism, say, brain differences may be easier to recognize and accept. So, what are some concrete ways to know this person's brain really operates differently on that level of being able to be able to do some of these abstract relational things that are required for deep understanding around complicated internal experiences?

Lindsay: Very few people talk about how different children's brains are and the limitations of what they can and can't do. So, psychoeducation is huge. Otherwise, you're going to be beating your head against a wall. It’s the notion that this person's sense of self is not the same as yours. Their concept of time is not the same as yours.

I use the example of marbles in a box. For an EIP, each experience is like a marble in the box. They're not strung on a necklace where you can go back and learn from your mistakes or integrate this with what happened in the past. To a person who can string those marbles on the necklace, this feels obvious. But your brain's different. It integrates differently. You think differently.

Photo by Nabeel Hussain on Unsplash

Yael: It's hard to understand someone thinking in a way so different from you, unable to see connections that seem so obvious to you. But say you can get to the point of saying, “Okay, this EIP doesn't have the capacity to understand me or what happened between us.” I see two challenges that can make it hard to stay engaged. First, you have to manage your human impulse to want to be understood and to engage deeply if that's a part of how you engage in relationships. Second, how do you engage in the relationship if the way that works for them is so different than what works you?

Lindsay: Yeah, so with the psychoeducation, you're going to arrive at a realization that this interaction is probably not going to be very satisfying or invigorating to you. It's going to take more of a certain type of intimacy or level of thought to engage you on all your levels. Your brain is playing three-dimensional chess. You're factoring in empathy, you're factoring in mentalization, and how they might be conceptualizing the situation. And they are operating at a very two-dimensional level. They're playing checkers.

The truth is, playing checkers on a two-dimensional board works really well for a high percentage of the adult activities that we need to get by as an adult. Some people are super successful being two-dimensional people.

Yael: I love the metaphor of recognizing that an EIP may only be capable of playing two-dimensional checkers, even though for you it would be much more rewarding and satisfying to play three-dimensional chess. If somebody can't play that, then you have to figure out like how to play their game.

Lindsay: Exactly. Because that's the game they're going to be playing. And it doesn't matter what you try to bring into it if they can't receive it.

A coaching client of mine was trying to relate to her mother. But it just drove her crazy that her mother was so superficial. So two-dimensional. They could never have a real conversation. And it was a delicate sort of process to get her to entertain the idea that maybe her mom was a two-dimensional person and she was trying to relate to her as a three-dimensional person.

But my client felt like she was giving up on her mom. She said, “I feel like I should keep trying because otherwise we'll never have a good conversation.” So I said, “How about if we try to think about it in terms of what your mom can realistically do? Not even, what can you expect from her, but just to back up even a little bit further and have that kind of perspective of what actually can she do?” And once she backed up a little, she could see that the way that her mom functioned in life in this very superficial way. And it helped her to see that she didn't have to keep trying to knock herself out.

It's almost like if you have a child with a ADHD. If you understand what their limitations are and you work within that, you can have a much better relationship with them and not be as frustrated.

Yael: Yeah. I'll sort of throw something else in because EIPs can look really unhappy. For instance, it makes sense to me that your client wanted to save her mom because EIPs often have significant issues with emotion regulation and difficult relationships and dissatisfaction with life's meaning. And so not only are you trying to create some kind of depth and connection that feels connecting for you, but also there's this innate impulse to care that they are so deeply unhappy. It’s hard for emotionally mature people to witness suffering and sit with not responding.

So, my question here is, how do you tolerate your impulse to want to help them develop insight or try more productive behaviors? Because that impulse is strong even if you have evidence that these kinds of gestures are ultimately counterproductive.

Lindsay: Yeah. That impulse comes from a very good place. But the answer, again, is to get curious about what your experience has been with them. When you've tried, how has it gone?

The other part goes back to the communication issue. If you are trying to communicate with somebody, they have to want to understand what you're saying and, more than that, to really get anywhere, they have to be imagining how you're feeling as you're talking. They have to try your perspective on. And because of their egocentrism and their lack of self-reflection, and their limited empathy, they don't naturally do that.

You know, the worst thing that that could happen to the parent is that the kid becomes estranged. It's so incredibly painful for that parent. They, they don't understand it. They don't know what they did wrong. They don't think they did anything wrong, and they are sure that they know the answer, which is everything needs to go back to the way it was. There was even a recent article where mothers were asked them about the reasons for estrangement. Most didn't think they'd done anything wrong. It's really hard to communicate with somebody who isn't interested in listening because they already think they know what's what.

So, when a person is trying to communicate with an EIP, it's a process of asking whether or not that person is able to hear or change or wants to do that. It's like an accumulation of consciousness about the experiences that they've been having for years. Even so, hope springs eternal.

Yael: Yeah, well, it's so hard to accept, isn’t it? You have to kind of keep reminding yourself of what isn't possible. And then it sounds like the recommendation is to figure out what do you actually think could be possible given the limitations and given what you've learned through your efforts to try to connect at various times and in various ways.

Lindsay: I always go back to is the importance of being connected with yourself before you even go into the attempt to communicate with someone else. Invariably, when people are communicating with EIPs, they get all projected into that other person and all about the relationship and the communication. And now they're not anchored in themselves, which makes them a sitting duck for gaslighting and feeling put down or getting reactive.

Yael: Is that self-connection about being able to be in touch with your core values?

Lindsay: No, being in touch with core values is more of a thinking process. You're remembering your values; you're asking yourself if you're following your values. That’s a cognitive approach and what I'm talking about is being in touch with the emotion in the moment. That's where we come home to.

So, let's say you're talking to your parent, like my client that had the superficial mom. She's talking to her and she's starting to feel frustrated. She's starting to feel thwarted because she can't seem to get past this superficial level with her. Maybe she's starting to feel angry, or hopeless. Like, “what's the matter with me that I can't seem to reach her?” It is not a satisfying interaction at all. If you stay in touch with those feelings, you are now in touch with your sense of self, not your idea of yourself, not your self-concept, not your values, but the felt sense. Being in touch with your feelings gives you an opportunity to stay centered in that. And then from there, you are getting the signals that you need. Like, “this is no fun.” Or, “I'm not feeling understood.” Or, “that hurt my feelings; I'm feeling controlled; I'm feeling disrespected.” Those are gut feelings.

All these body cues make up the sense of self. And if you stay connected with that and you stay embodied, you can protect yourself. That's the cue that tells you you've had enough and it’s time to bring this to a close. Or, if you get into this, you're going to be in a rage in about five minutes. You feel how it's going and that gives you an opportunity to do something that's self-protective. With an EIP, we have to come back home to our own emotional selves.

In my first book, Who You're Meant to Be, I talk about how when you're talking with someone, you feel exhausted or you feel exhilarated; you feel inspired or you feel hopeless. All those have to do with how your energy's doing. And I'm not talking new age anything. I'm talking nervous system. We're energy systems, we're living beings, and our energy goes up when we are seen and understood and communicated with, and it goes down when somebody is so stuck in their own frame of mind that they can't even respond well, they can't even see us actually much less respond to us in a reciprocal, communicative way.

Yael: What you’re saying reminds me of David Brooks’ newest book, How to Know a Person. It offers this framework of people being either illuminators or diminishers where illuminators are people who shine their light of understanding on you and diminishers don't see you and cause you feel diminished.

But the question that comes up for me is that if it’s a work acquaintance who is diminishing you, it's not that big of a deal to reduce the amount that you're hanging out with them. But if it's your parent or partner, it’s trickier to manage if you want to continue to interact with them. So, what can you do?

Lindsay: Well, it could be backing up and doing a reassessment of expectations. Like, “There I go again expecting that we're going to have this meaningful conversation.” So, the realization that I'm trying to get something from this person that they can't give.

The other thing though, is the possibility of moving into some kind of appreciation and enjoyment of the person if possible. Because you're trying to get your energy back. If you can find a way to see the emotionally immature person as they really are. Like that client of mine, she reached a point where she understood her mom's limitations. She accepted that she had to take care of herself by being tuned in to herself.

But then, but then there was this other element that I'm talking about, which is appreciation and enjoyment. It’s tuning into the things that maybe have some meaning. I mean, everybody has something that’s interesting, something that’s positive. It's a little bit the way we can continue to enjoy our toddlers or teenagers even when they are frustrating. It's a kind of affectionate, “Okay, this is the best I can get from you right now.”

Yael: Yes, and maybe you can carry forward that analogy of chess versus checkers. You could say, “Well, I'd rather play chess. Chess is much more intellectually engaging, emotionally fulfilling. But checkers can be kind of fun. It’s not as interesting or emotionally fulfilling, but I can find ways to enjoy it and see the beauty in it.”

Lindsay: And is that fair? No. You would think that with another adult you wouldn't have to do that. But unfortunately, we have to do that a lot when we have loved ones who are emotionally immature.

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If you found value in this conversation, check out Lindsay’s books. And if you want to contribute to Lindsay’s work-on-progress, you have a unique opportunity! Lindsay is hard at work writing a book titled How to Raise an Emotionally Mature Child, which will be released by Penguin Random House next year. As part of this process, she is looking to hear parenting stories for possible inclusion in the book (anonymously, using pseudonyms). (Reply to this email and I will forward you her brief survey).